Paul Murphy, over at blogs.zdnet.com, has written a completely unimpressive blog entry entitled “I’d suggest Linux – but…”
The most persistent complaint you hear about Linux from the wintel community is that it’s for geeks – and that the geeks involved so rejoice in their geekiness that it’s off-putting to the sensible majority represented by who ever happens to be speaking.
What an odd thing to say. What an extremely odd thing to say!
Paul, I have to tell you, this simply is not true. Apart from the fact that you don’t back your statements up with any facts, what you wrote there is arrant nonsense. What’s a “wintel community”? People who only use Windows and Intel PC’s? Because if so, then I can tell you for a fact that what you wrote is poppycock. My last job, before I moved countries (from Britain to Japan), was as IT Manager for a company with offices world wide. Most if not all the employees used Windows on their PC’s to complete their job tasks, making them part of this “wintel community” you speak of. Whenever I mentioned Linux, I didn’t get any sort of response such as “oh that’s just for geeks“, I received mostly either indifference or a response of “interesting, I might have a look at that”.
Aside from that, “off-putting to the sensible majority represented by who ever happens to be speaking“, is – to me – meaningless padding of a bleak blog entry.
This used to be true for a minority of those involved with Linux – as witness the widespread use of the intentional, compiler stopping, minor error in the distributed source to frighten off the unwashed.
What the heck is an “intentional, compiler stopping, minor error in the distributed source to frighten off the unwashed.” ? Are you stating that some Linux “geek” somewhere intentionally placed some kind of show-stopper bug in some – unspecified (of course) – source code somewhere, just to hammer members of this “wintel community”? If so, again, I demand that you back up this ridiculous hyperbole with some verifiable facts and examples, otherwise I may just think that you’ve made your blog entry up as you typed along.
It generally isn’t true any more but the meme persists
Simply not true, in my experience. Allow me to give you an example. A few years ago, I met up with a lot of folks who frequent an IRC channel called #linux. We met up in Manchester City, in the UK, over a weekend, and I can honestly say I’ve never met a nicer bunch of folks. There was no arrogance, no “rejoicing in geekiness”, just a bunch of human beings enjoying each others company and who share a common interest. I myself am married, and have a son. I may suffer from the odd bout of arrogance but it’s not Linux specific. I may be a “geek” but I’m certainly not immature.
presumably because the people who recite it as a mantra believe that it’s both effective as a put down against open source and a subtle way of strengthening their personal identification with the pretty party people who typically rise to the top in business and government organizations.
Arrant nonsense. Anyone who recites such things are either trying to create FUD about Linux/FOSS, or are quite simply, out of touch with reality. The company I was an IT manager for converted from Microsoft Exchange to a Linux based email solution under my initiative and the upper management saw the benefits of the replacement system in terms of uptime and stability, and also of the cost savings in not having to renew expensive software licenses. They certainly didn’t disparage the use of Linux. In fact the company had been using a Linux based web server years before that.
Unfortunately saying that most Linux geeks have outgrown this doesn’t mean all of them have
If you’re saying that there are immature users of Linux out there, then this is indeed true – I agree entirely! However, I say there is an order of magnitude greater proportion of immature “wintel” users out there, simply because “wintel users” currently outnumber “Lintel users”. Aside from that, your statement again is pretty meaningless. I could just as well say “Unfortunately, saying that most Snowboarding geeks have outgrown this doesn’t mean all of them have”. How about “Unfortunately, saying that most gardening geeks have outgrown this doesn’t mean all of them have”? Do you see what I’m getting at? How about I spell it out for you? For every set of humans who are “geeks” for a particular subject or pastime, a subset of those will be immature, or have not outgrown their immaturity. Do you get where your reasoning is going wrong yet?
and because it takes years for social dampening to affect a mythology like this it’s particularly unfortunate that a high profile site many Linux tire kickers go to for Linux information: linux.org; goes out of its way to illustrate the problem.
” Linux tire kickers” – ad hominem attack. And lets see your point about linux.org…
Try it: do what any wintel user would do, go to “Linux.org” in the expectation that this will default to www.linux.org and look at the message you get:
For comprehensive information about Linux please visit our proper site, www.linux.org.
Please update your bookmarks and any links you may have to this old site.
Paul, you seem to have no clue about the difference between a domain, and a host within a domain. Look at the message : “Please update your bookmarks and any links you may have to this old site.” – note the words “old site” – this probably means that the web site was located at that URL, but has now been relocated to “www.linux.org” , and that anyone who has “linux.org” bookmarked should now make their bookmark to “www.linux.org”. I can’t see any harm in that. Oh but you do, apparently…
It defaults to the www address in ten seconds – but think about the impact this smug, arrogant, and geeky message has on a potential Linux recruit just barely willing to whisper “linux” out loud and point his browser at the obvious: linux.org, to get more information.
It’s worth spending some time just to rip this sentence apart bit by sorry little bit…
It defaults to the www address in ten seconds
Just enough time to take the message in and remember to do something about it…
but think about the impact this smug, arrogant, and geeky message
I see nothing smug about this message. Nor do I see anything arrogant about it, or even geeky. What I do see is the beginnings of a Straw Man argument coming from you…
has on a potential Linux recruit just barely willing to whisper “linux” out loud
How can you whisper something out loud? Absolutely ridiculous writing…
and point his browser at the obvious: linux.org, to get more information
I don’t know about you, but nine times out of ten I usually attempt to try typing “www.<domain>” when first guessing a new site I want to access. Either that or I search Google – and Lo And Behold, www.linux.org is the top entry in google’s results. This site, hackfud.net, I personally chose to have its default URL to be “http://hackfud.net”. My personal choice. But if you type “http://www.hackfud.net you’ll be automatically redirected to the first URL. Again, my personal choice. The people who run www.linux.org will have their reasons for doing things they way they have, I’ve sent them an email and am awaiting a response. If I get one I’ll update this article.
Really, Paul, to me it looks like you just wanted to have a general moan about something, picked Linux, and then set about creating a straw man to beat down.
And lastly…
FYI: I tried to contact them using the email address Linux.org provides on its front page:
The original message was received at Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:10:21 -0700 (MST)
from suni [70.65.128.188]—– The following addresses had permanent fatal errors —–
(reason: 550 5.7.1 … Mail refused: 70.65.128.188 listed by
DIAL DNSBL. See http://www.invlogic.com/mail/dial.html)—– Transcript of session follows —–
… while talking to mail.linux.org.:
>>> DATA
< << 550 5.7.1 … Mail refused: 70.65.128.188 listed by DIAL
DNSBL. See http://www.invlogic.com/mail/dial.html
550 5.1.1 … User unknown
< << 503 5.0.0 Need RCPT (recipient)
Try reading the bounce message, and following the given link. Then go to the other link from the page there and read that they screen email rather aggressively to prevent shed-loads of spam reaching user’s inboxes. They even offer solutions to solve your email bouncing problem.
Really for someone who claims;
Originally a Math/Physics graduate who couldn’t cut it in his own field, Paul Murphy (a pseudonym) became an IT consultant specializing in Unix and related technologies after a stint working for a DARPA contractor programming in Fortran and APL. Since then he’s worked in both systems management and consulting for a range of employers including KPMG, the government of Alberta, and his own firm. In those roles he’s “been there and done that” for just about every aspect of systems management and operation.
IT consultant specializing in Unix and related technologies? I question your knowledge and experience. Either that, or you specifically set out to write this FUD piece. Either way, you have, in my opinion, made yourself look rather foolish.
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25 Comments For This Post
1. Ramkumar Says:
December 10th, 2007 at 11:23 pm
Good post. Frankly, the linux.org ‘argument’ is quite simply ridiculous.
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2. Penguin Pete Says:
December 11th, 2007 at 5:31 am
*sigh* Another day, another anti-Linux troll, another pro-Linux return volley.
What I do these days when somebody flames Linux is, I say “Pigeons will always crap on the statues of heroes.” and then I dismiss them with a wave of the hand and go on to the next news item.
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3. Paul Murphy Says:
December 11th, 2007 at 7:38 am
I’m sorry you so badly missed the point
– try to see the email bounce and the redirect messages from someone else’s perspective: in this case that of the totally uninformed newbie just wondering if maybe there’s something to this Linux thing others talk about.
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4. kc Says:
December 11th, 2007 at 10:13 am
I’m sorry you so badly missed the point
– try to see the email bounce and the redirect messages from someone else’s perspective: in this case that of the totally uninformed newbie just wondering if maybe there’s something to this Linux thing others talk about.”
It’s not the case that I didn’t see the point of your post. I am pointing out that your post’s entire premise is based on griping about things which – even to a complete novice – will not discourage them from finding information on Linux one iota.
I have been working in IT since 1988, have used various flavours of Unix since then, from BSD to SVRX, from Solaris to HPUX to Linux. I’ve also grown up with the home computers, Amigas, Ataris, Orics (!), and countless others, through the 80’s and 90’s. I have been in various user support roles throughout that period, so I consider myself pretty experienced when it comes to empathising with complete newbies – I can put myself fully in their shoes when it comes to looking for information on a subject.
Where your article goes completely wrong is that you’ve based your entire premise on one or two little and potential annoyances. So what if there’s a page redirect with some information displayed for 10 seconds? Anyone would find that more informative than annoying, in my opinion. I see web redirects a lot of times, I don’t find it annoying or arrogant.
As for the email bounce/newbie point – that’s a weak argument. A newbie is FAR more likely to just browse the linux.org web pages for more information than to try to contact someone there – the contact is even merely a “feedback@” address. They have VERY aggressive email screening, to cut down on SPAM – that’s all. If that discourages a newbie from further exploring Linux then the newbie is easily discouraged. That is not an elitist point of view, it’s a realistic point of view.
I just think your entire article was a very poor effort, with the greater effect of generating FUD – intentional or not – which is why I singled it out on my site.
Regards.
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5. Henry Keultjes Says:
December 12th, 2007 at 10:30 am
From time to time, probably for at least ten years, I have interacted with “Paul Murphy” through emails about articles he wrote. If these “The most persistent complaint you hear about Linux from the wintel community is that it’s for geeks – and that the geeks involved so rejoice in their geekiness that it’s off-putting to the sensible majority represented by who ever happens to be speaking.” I have to agree with Paul 100%.
My credentials: As the architect and interface designer of our own enterprise software I was able to guide several generations of programmers to implement a suite of software that produced 2.5 times the productivity of similar companies with excellent productivity.
Over the last decade I have tried to enlist the help of the FOSS community to implement similar Open Source ideas. Because of their stated principles, I am a big Debian fan but I, with more than fourty years of IT experience, find myself totally incapable of downloading and installing Debian because the ways in which it wants me to do that go totally against my grain. Thus I am totally stymied to spread my FOSS message to the business and student communities that I want to target because I am not about to urge anyone to do something that I am incapable of doing myself.
My objectives require a minimal KDE oriented, which means nothing Gnome and nothing dtk and nothing else that I don’t need, custom Debian distro of sorts. How hard should this be? I perfectly understand the tools that are available to do this and that those tools are quite adequate to do exactly what I require yet I don’t seem to be able to get anyone in the Debian community interested in doing this. All I get is arguments why I should do it some other way or why I should use some other distro.
I also happen to be a much better than average sales person and understand the need for understanding a customer’s requirements and responding to them. Obviously that goes against a typical geeks grain and in that lies the crux of the problem, the luxury of the typical FOSS geek to only do what they want to do because, obviously, their income is not dependent on their volunteer FOSS work.
When I was directing those programmers for our own software they were on my payroll and they did what they were told because, like a bricklayer or a steelworker, they not only realized the need for an architect who understood the big picture, they also understood that both *their* livelyhood and *my* livelyhood were tied to that objective.
So, as long as there are people like myself who are willing to spearhead certain ideas, the FOSS community could get more bang for the buck and consequently more users if these geeks were made aware that they will be the greatest beneficiaries of such cooperation.
Just so you know, I have no problem sharing the wealth as long as wealth is being created. But as long as I am doing this as a volunteer for the purpose of growing the FOSS user base, I have no wealth to share except the satisfaction it brings to instill my FOSS enthusiasm in numerous eager minds, both young and old.
Thus the simpler the coursework the more converts. Combine that with the web and its infinite ability to tie all of us to an infinite array of FOSS products, why not get on this bandwagon because, as the bandwago grows the opportunity to create wealth growth and that’s the wealth we can all share.
Henry Keultjes
Database Scientifics
Mansfield Ohio USA
hb then last name at
earthlink dot net
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6. Lucas Says:
December 12th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
Wouldn’t you be better of referring a newbie to a distribution website rather than linux.org?
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7. Petrus Says:
December 12th, 2007 at 1:02 pm
If you’d actually bothered to *understand* as well as read the ZDNet post, you might realise that he is actually trying to help dispel the “Linux is fringe,” idea.
The thing is, however, that it’s a valid belief. Linux IS fringe…and ranting like this from people like you merely adds more evidence to support that assertion.
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8. Steve Says:
December 12th, 2007 at 1:16 pm
Actually, linux is about to go mainstream for a bunch of people who, ahem, can’t afford windows.. Walmart has already sold out of gOS / linux based machines, and the few companies making cheap boxes basically can’t make them fast enough..
Since still 25% of Americans don’t even own a computer (and certainly a large majority of the poor world), and those that do would probably by a second cheap one if it where an option, it seems to me that a cheap linux box has a lot more room to grow against windows…
Especially with the amazingly disappointing and expense vista debacle
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9. Phil Says:
December 12th, 2007 at 1:19 pm
“My objectives require a minimal KDE oriented, which means nothing Gnome and nothing dtk and nothing else that I don’t need, custom Debian distro of sorts. How hard should this be? I perfectly understand the tools that are available to do this and that those tools are quite adequate to do exactly what I require yet I don’t seem to be able to get anyone in the Debian community interested in doing this. All I get is arguments why I should do it some other way or why I should use some other distro.”
I believe I understand your request but I must ask what you are expecting in terms of help. Do you want an explanation of how to do this or a modification to the distro? Is this something that the majority of Debian users want or just you?
I ask this because I notice more and more of the “elite geek” arguments stem from people wanting something specific to them that no one would expect from any commercial vendor.
Now thats not to say this is your situation. However if the Debian community does not seem to want to help then it may be a good idea to try another distro with a more supportive community that fits your needs.
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10. kc Says:
December 12th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
@Henry Keultjes :
Henry, thanks for your comments, but I still disagree with the “linux is for geeks” sentiment – just because Linux systems do not work or behave in exactly the same manner as the ubiquitous Windows systems, does not mean that Linux is for “geeks”. Learning how to use Linux involves a different learning curve from Windows systems. Also, there comes a point when a person uses a Windows system for the first time too, and I think this is where the perception that Linux is somehow difficult to learn to use, comes in, especially if the person using a computer for the first time is only introduced to the Windows way of doing things. Case in point is my 5 year old son; The very first system he used was an old (and rugged) laptop which was running Debian on it – and he was about 2.5 years old. I was pleasantly surprised how quickly he could master using it, and a year or so after first use he became an expert at using Tuxpaint, and ever since then he has grown quite proficient at using a computer system. He even is beginning to understand what makes a computer “tick” as it were, as along the way I have been teaching him various things about how computers work, what goes on under the bonnet, etc.. He’s becoming quite the little expert. I also allow him to use Windows too. Now, say I had ONLY let him use a Windows system, what would happen if today I let him loose on a Linux laptop? Probably lots of confusion, and why? Because Linux is not Windows, and does things in a different enough manner that people who haven’t used a Linux system before could get confused. So my point is that a “newbie” is only a “newbie” because they haven’t learned how to use something before, and that there are many resources on the internet which are out there to help these kinds of people learn how to use Linux. It really isn’t just for geeks, neither is it an “elitist” system.
That’s not to say that there aren’t “geeks” who use Linux – but in any given pastime there are a subset of participants who are “geeks” – it’s a population in any pastime which reflects the sets and subsets in the superset of “Human Beings”, and to single out Linux like the author in the original article I discussed suggests is just plain wrong.
I’m still puzzled about why Paul wrote;
as witness the widespread use of the intentional, compiler stopping, minor error in the distributed source to frighten off the unwashed.
because not only has he not provided proof of that assertion he made but it’s also quite a nasty accusation, and it’s that kind of writing, together with all the other points I made about his article, which made me come to the conclusion that his article was very poorly written in one respect, and because of that it generates more FUD against Linux and its users.
I hope what I’ve written makes it clearer as to why I wrote my article.
As to your Debian conundrum, why not take a look at Kubuntu? It’s a KDE-oriented distribution which is a spin-off of Ubuntu Linux, which itself is derived from Debian? I checked the Kubuntu web page before replying to you and found that it contained a lot of useful information – not to mention that the Ubuntu web site itself has loads of help available for users.
I hope that helps you in your quest.
Regards
Kevin.
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11. kc Says:
December 12th, 2007 at 3:32 pm
@Petrus :
If you’d actually bothered to *understand* as well as read the ZDNet post, you might realise that he is actually trying to help dispel the “Linux is fringe,” idea.
The thing is, however, that it’s a valid belief. Linux IS fringe…and ranting like this from people like you merely adds more evidence to support that assertion.
Please don’t get the impression that I didn’t understand the article, I understood it well enough. I think it’s a very poor article, and I called him on it. Please refer to my reply to Henry above for further reasons as to why I thought the article and reasoning was poor.
Regards,
Kevin.
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12. kc Says:
December 12th, 2007 at 3:34 pm
@Lucas :
Wouldn’t you be better of referring a newbie to a distribution website rather than linux.org?
Lucas, precisely! And a simple search on google reveals shed-loads of information and help resources for Linux too.
I’ve personally found that ubuntu’s help is very good, and even though I use Ubuntu (and Debian), I also found the Gentoo forums immensely helpful when I got stuck on something, which does happen to me occasionally.
Regards,
Kevin.
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13. Prasad Says:
December 12th, 2007 at 4:35 pm
It’s a pitty, people who does’nt know how to access a website (linux.org) is reviewing Linux. God save Linux.
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14. RD Says:
December 12th, 2007 at 4:53 pm
@Henry Keultjes :
“My objectives require a minimal KDE oriented, which means nothing Gnome and nothing dtk and nothing else that I don’t need, custom Debian distro of sorts. How hard should this be? I perfectly understand the tools that are available to do this and that those tools are quite adequate to do exactly what I require yet I don’t seem to be able to get anyone in the Debian community interested in doing this. All I get is arguments why I should do it some other way or why I should use some other distro.
…
that lies the crux of the problem, the luxury of the typical FOSS geek to only do what they want to do because, obviously, their income is not dependent on their volunteer FOSS work.”
So the logical answer is to pay some FOSS “geek” to develop a customised Debian install. There happens to be Sidux, which is quite a tasteful KDE Live CD, with aim to install Debian unnstable aka Sid.
Now I much prefer KDE, but performing a minimal net Debian expert install is not hard, and then you can add in the packages you want.
When you were developing a product, I doubt that you let your customers over-specify their solution, but gave them a range of options, which you would sometimes tweak to specific requirements.
Furthermore if you were flexible enough to consider other non-Debian distributions, Open SuSE now features a minimal text install (I even had to add vi(1) post-installation), and also the tool Kiwi, permits customisation. The SuSE KDE seems to be the most advanced, with commercial polish, and includes a Kmenu that is basis for new KDE4 menu system. It is very hard to go back to more basic KDE supplied by Kubuntu, fedora afterwards.
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15. RD Says:
December 12th, 2007 at 5:03 pm
@Paul Murphy :
“I’m sorry you so badly missed the point
– try to see the email bounce and the redirect messages from someone else’s perspective: in this case that of the totally uninformed newbie just wondering if maybe there’s something to this Linux thing others talk about.”
No it was you that badly missed the point. I read your article, and found it ridiculous, making you appear clueless about practicalities of web hosting and email. I mistakenly presumed you were a M$ Fanboy, as it appeared you knew nothing about the FOSS community nor the working of UNIX. Just another Zdnet article that was misinformed, and inaccurate. I was encouraged that they were focussing on such petty criticism, of small details, because their past FUD had been blown out of the water, and looked very silly.
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16. Pashabear Says:
December 12th, 2007 at 6:07 pm
Talking about clueless, how about suggesting that the “average” newbie (whatever that might be) would first look at linux.org? I think 99% of the newbie/wintel population would go to linux.com first, and this immediately redirects to a very well put together site – INCLUDING information on distros, a good explanation, etc. This looks like quite a good face for the linux world to me.
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17. chris Says:
December 12th, 2007 at 8:34 pm
KC, Thank you for proving Paul’s point. I’ve been using linux for years, but I’m as passionate about it as I am about the brand of toilet paper I use (read: not very). Linux users need to realize an operating system is just that. Not a political ideology or a religion (it is to them, I know, but they miss the point).
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18. kc Says:
December 12th, 2007 at 9:31 pm
@chris :
KC, Thank you for proving Paul’s point. I’ve been using linux for years, but I’m as passionate about it as I am about the brand of toilet paper I use (read: not very). Linux users need to realize an operating system is just that. Not a political ideology or a religion (it is to them, I know, but they miss the point).
Chris, it’s easy to make assertions without explaining how you thought them out. And you’ve made two assertions here without explaining them;
1) That I have proved Paul’s point.
How so?
2) That “Linux users” think that an operating system is a political ideology or a religion.
Prove your assertion.
I’ve set up this site specifically to attempt to counter FUD against Open Source Software (and Open Standards). This FUD is being generated, and by many people, and by a few companies who’s interests are best served by fighting FOSS and Open Standards in as dirty and underhanded manner as possible. And one of those methods is generating FUD.
Please, believe me when I say I also don’t think of Linux as either a political ideology OR as a religion (in fact I’m 100% Atheist so treating ANYTHING as a religion would go against my principles
). What motivates me is a strong instinct that FOSS and Open Standards is The Right Thing To Do , so I’m doing something to support both in my own personal way.
I probably come across as being very direct. I guess that’s my Scottish upbringing – we Scots don’t like to see BS and call it when we see it – and to some people this seems to be too much for them.
Regards,
kevin.
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19. Rambo Tribble Says:
December 13th, 2007 at 12:06 am
It was Plato who defined opinion as, “. . . greater than ignorance, but less than knowledge.” Mr. Murphy has put the lie to Plato’s observation by demonstrating an opinion comprised of pure and unmitigated ignorance.
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20. Jake Says:
December 15th, 2007 at 7:21 am
Hmm… most Windows users I see always type www before something anyway.
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21. Justin Says:
December 15th, 2007 at 8:35 am
This was way too long for me to bother reading all the way trough.
Obviously whoever’s argument you thoroughly tore through is too stubborn, arrogant, and close-minded to even bother using linux. Let him stay with windows as linux grows and maybe someday he’ll see that they are equal.
I use both regularly, and neither one works better for me than the other, it’s just my preferences for which one I like doing certain tasks on.
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22. baracuda Says:
December 15th, 2007 at 11:31 pm
Oh,great…now All Linux users are going to be thought of as Athiests…
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23. kc Says:
December 15th, 2007 at 11:35 pm
Oh,great…now All Linux users are going to be thought of as Athiests…
Now is that such a bad thing? *grin*
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24. Koro Says:
December 17th, 2007 at 12:34 am
I don’t think anyone should be making any large accusations about any operating system without actually spending time using both side by side.
There is one thing that I will say though:
Windows has become too “user friendly” and is breeding a nation of people who only ‘use’ computers, but never actually learn about them.
Remember back to Windows 3.1, and even 95 when there were somethings that you just couldn’t do without involving DOS? Users in general had a better understanding of the workings of the computer because you had to ‘know’ how the file system works. Every windows distro since has gradually phased out the command line and now I have difficulty explaining to people the file structure of their computer, and how to find things.
And Mac OS X isn’t much better… At least most (I wanna say average, because this should be the average, but sadly its just not the case) above average Windows user can access, and knows how to change the colour scheme of their computer. Apple doesn’t even give you the choice. If you want things to look different on your mac, you have to download tweaks. And all you mac users who might be reading this, when was the last time you used the terminal? Do you know where your “Home Folder” is located?
As for myself, I think Windows, and Mac OS X have their merits, but I also feel that our society should have some of the “comfort” of using a computer pulled out from underneath them. Make them learn why a computer does what it does when you do something.
Oh, and one upside of Linux, or at least ubuntu, is that if I want new software, I just open up my package manager, do a simple search for the type of application I want, and click install, and it downloads and installs it for me without me having to go online and find it, download it, and install it myself.
(yeah, I know, this is kinda hypocritical after my argument about Windows being to user friendly, but perhaps it can be looked at as an example that Linux isn’t as user un-friendly as the “anti-Linux” community would like the “newbie” to believe).
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25. phinkehib Says:
October 7th, 2008 at 5:38 am
?????????? ?????????? ??? WordPress 2.6.2, ????? ??? ????? ?? ??? hackfud.net.
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